RMM wrote on my old boinky blog:
“Scott, community benefits, roads, fire department, etc. is why we pay taxes.”
Yes, but you also aren’t allowed to put up signs that are too large, make too much noise, put a business in a place zone for residence, etc. Community is more than paying taxes. There are rules that are created to make the community more pleasant and more successful. If you want those rules that benefit you, you have to follow rules that you may not like.
“Furthermore to claim that the autonomy of the individual, even the freedom to
be a hating idiot, threatens, "the economy" or "creates a permanent underclass:
is specious.”
Not hiring a group of people, limiting opportunities for them, & restricting where they can live absolutely improves the chances of creating an underclass. Seriously, you really don’t think that restricting where people can live, what we call “ghettoizing,” doesn’t create an underclass? Come now. Surely, you’ve heard of history? If bias and ghettoizing didn’t create the underclasses, what did do it in society after society across the globe and throughout time?
“Even during the 50's at the height of segregation, employers who refused to
hire blacks were hurting themselves more than their prospective employees.”
And yet they still did it and created an underclass of poor blacks.
“The economy is simply too damn competitive to stay competitive if your reduce
your hiring pool in such a way.”
No, it isn’t as evidenced by over 100 years of segregation and the continued presence of bias in hiring today. It was not long ago that a case in NYC found that an employment company in NYC was writing “good candidate” on applications of blacks so they would know not to send them to some interviews. Blacks (and gays even more so) represent a small enough percentage of the population that a company can be competitive and racist (or homophobic.) Moreover, in areas that are predominantly racist, a company would have an advantage gaining racist customers if they have racist hiring procedures.
“More to the point, these ideas violate all our rights. Should you be forced to
hire a man who believes all gay men should be killed outright? Of course not.”
No one should be forced to hire any particular person. But that is not the same as refusing to hire an entire protected class of people. If there was the threat of creating an underclass of homophobes, perhaps they -- as a class -- should be protected. I don’t see that being necessary right now, but maybe in the future. The courts have defined particular classes of people who are prone to become underclasses by prevailing bias. If there is not a prevailing bias that can create an underclass, the group of people is not protected and can be discriminated against for whatever attribute one might care to discriminate against them. Right now, homophobes are not a protected class, but religious affiliation is a protected class. In most cases, I should not be allowed to consider religion, even anti-gay religions, in my hiring because religious groups have been subjected to collective discrimination by communities, which has created underclasses. If you don’t believe me, ask any Jew. Catholics could tell you something too.
”So long as you do that, you deserve the benefits of being an American.”
I’m sorry, but weren’t you the one suggesting that gays should be excluded from one of the biggest employers in America, the military? If I follow the rules and pay my taxes, shouldn’t that benefit be available to me? Are governments allowed to discriminate in hiring? They are collectively the biggest employer in the US.
"The single best way for gays, or women, to be treated with respect, is for more
of them to achieve success.”
Agreed. But it’s not the only way and it becomes far more difficult to become successful if the culture suggests that they shouldn’t be hired, shouldn’t live in good neighborhoods, and shouldn’t be seen in public roles. You really don’t know what it’s like to be a minority. I can be fired if it is discovered that something having nothing whatsoever to do with my job is found out about me. That means that I not only loose my income, I loose my house because I can’t pay for it and I loose my insurance, which means that there is fair chance that I could loose my life because I have an odd genetic disease that I couldn’t afford to treat. I work for the state in a job that they could hire any number of other people to do so the idea of competition is kind of silly. I already was prevented for getting my dream job because a recruiter found out I was gay. She was a in your face Christian who loved me and even offered to hire me herself if the company she sent me to didn’t hire me. Then she found out I was gay and I never heard from her again. Not only did I not get that job, but I didn’t get any of the opportunities that job would have opened for me. So when you say that hiring bias won’t create an underclass, I have to tell you that you are full of shit. It does happen. We are hindered in our advancement.
“even the world’s biggest homophobe, if he’s a swimming fan, had to respect markMay I suggest to you that when it comes to being gay, I know a wee bit more about the problems that come along with that than you do, so maybe you shouldn’t tell me what I know? For instance, you are confusing Mark Spitz, who admittedly looks like Freddie Mercury, with Greg Louganis and “won’t play nice” is a particularly condescending term for losing your job, home, & insurance. If someone doesn’t want to play with me, that is fine. If I’m going to loose my income, home, & insurance, we’re in a different area.
spitz. But attempting to run to mommy gov and crying that the "straight white
boys" wont play nice, is the act of a child, not of a man. I know your better
than that scott.”
1 comment:
Yes, but you also aren’t allowed to put up signs that are too large, make too much noise, put a business in a place zone for residence, etc. Community is more than paying taxes. There are rules that are created to make the community more pleasant and more successful. If you want those rules that benefit you, you have to follow rules that you may not like.
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Granted, but thats a far cry from requiring people to hire certain people.
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.”Not hiring a group of people, limiting opportunities for them, & restricting where they can live absolutely improves the chances of creating an underclass. Seriously, you really don’t think that restricting where people can live, what we call “ghettoizing,” doesn’t create an underclass?
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Yes but we are discussing the actions of private individuals, NOT a governenmt. One employer, can not, marginalise an underclass. And unless you truly beleive the vast majority of employers would do so your point has no, well, point.
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Dude, I live in fort lauderdale a stones throw from wilton manorsd, there is no ghettoisation of gays. Shit most landlords prefer them, since they tend to have more disposable income and less problems.
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And yet they still did it and created an underclass of poor blacks
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Actually scott, the black underclass in the south, was making greater educational, economic, and ownership progress prior to the civil rights movement that it did after. Even with ghettoisation and jim crow. Furthermore your comparing apples to oranges. You are trying to use a situation where the law demanded racial discrimination in hiring and houses, and tryign to use it to prove a point about allowing people to run their own affairs.
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No, it isn’t as evidenced by over 100 years of segregation and the continued presence of bias in hiring today
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Again, legal, state ordered discrimination, is one thing. This is another. As to continued Bias in hiring today, OK> Sure it happens sometimes. So what? it also happens to asians at black owned business, christians at muslims owned business etc. Life aint perfect. Mosst if not virtually all companies, dont care about anything but whether or not you can and do, do the job.
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It was not long ago that a case in NYC found that an employment company in NYC was writing “good candidate” on applications of blacks so they would know not to send them to some interviews.
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?
And?
One company fine. Ill raise you, If I apply for a government contract, i am legally discriminated against. By the governm,ent itself. Any governemnt department. This is not a rare thing, it is government policy.
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Blacks (and gays even more so) represent a small enough percentage of the population that a company can be competitive and racist (or homophobic.)
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See now that is a fair point scott. Heres mine. People are discriminated against every day, for thousands of reasons, too short, too fat, too tall, too pretty too ugly, etc. So what? Some people are assholes and your best bet is to move on. If a guy doesnt hire you because your gay, or fires you because of it, move on. Like it or not, its his business.
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Moreover, in areas that are predominantly racist, a company would have an advantage gaining racist customers if they have racist hiring procedures.
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and you just invalidated the point you just made.
1) racist areas? Please. I dont know of any in america save beverly hills.
2)However If my customer base is racist, then I damn well better have racist policies. Sorry if it sounds cruel, but I wouldn't hire liberal woman to work at a cafe in Saudi Arabia. Abusiness is required to give its customers what they want. If I run a resturant, and my patrons stop eating there becaue I hired a black waiter, i owe it to myself, and every singel employee to fire him.
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No one should be forced to hire any particular person. But that is not the same as refusing to hire an entire protected class of people.
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And theres the heart of our disagreement. The very idea of a "protected class" is inehrently anti-american. Not to mention immoral, unethical, and wrong.
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The courts have defined particular classes of people who are prone to become underclasses by prevailing bias.
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The courts have also found that slaughtering a unborn child is a womans right to privacy. DOesnt make it right, or true.
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I should not be allowed to consider religion, even anti-gay religions, in my hiring because religious groups have been subjected to collective discrimination by communities, which has created underclasses.
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Bullshit. You should be allowed to hire, or not hire, anyone for any reason. period.
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I’m sorry, but weren’t you the one suggesting that gays should be excluded from one of the biggest employers in America, the military?
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No scott I wasn't, as you well know. I was however trrying to work out my own position on DADT. I was however suggesting that a sexuall oriented segregation in army housing units might be a good compromise.
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Are governments allowed to discriminate in hiring
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No. and that is the only restircition iw oudl agree to. Teh government is required to deal with all equally under law. I am not,neither are you.
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Agreed. But it’s not the only way and it becomes far more difficult to become successful if the culture suggests that they shouldn’t be hired, shouldn’t live in good neighborhoods, and shouldn’t be seen in public roles. You really don’t know what it’s like to be a minority.
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Actually scott I do. In several ways. I travelled quite a bit and in many, many of the places I have lived i was a hated minority. Do you have any idea what its liek to be a white in south africa? Or a christian in turkey or Suadi Arabia?
DOnt play the "you dont know my pain card" scott you're better than that.
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I can be fired if it is discovered that something having nothing whatsoever to do with my job is found out about me.
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I have been fired among other things, for
1)Not speaking spanish in an american resturant, becasue all the kitchen staff did.
2) being a republican.
3) being white (new ownership)
4) being male.
5) being too tall.
None of which had anything to do with any of these jobs. Shit happens. man up.
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I already was prevented for getting my dream job because a recruiter found out I was gay. She was a in your face Christian who loved me and even offered to hire me herself if the company she sent me to didn’t hire me. Then she found out I was gay and I never heard from her again. Not only did I not get that job, but I didn’t get any of the opportunities that job would have opened for me. So when you say that hiring bias won’t create an underclass, I have to tell you that you are full of shit. It does happen. We are hindered in our advancement.
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Again scott a few instances, does not institutional anything make.
I have lost jobs because I was christian and a recruiter was a rabid athiest. I ahev also lost jobs becasue I wasn't a christian (several years later)However despite this, and for all the "discrimination" in america, foreign bron minorities do better, much better economically, than native born ones. To me that says the problem isnt racism, its the attitude that racism is to blame.
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May I suggest to you that when it comes to being gay, I know a wee bit more about the problems that come along with that than you do, so maybe you shouldn’t tell me what I know? For instance, you are confusing Mark Spitz, who admittedly looks like Freddie Mercury, with Greg Louganis and “won’t play nice” is a particularly condescending term for losing your job, home, & insurance. If someone doesn’t want to play with me, that is fine. If I’m going to loose my income, home, & insurance, we’re in a different area.
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You have obviosuly, far more experience in that area than I do.
And it was meant to be condescending becasue the opinion your expressing is, from what i have seen of you, beneath you.
Yes you could lose your job cause of a homophone. Or because of a caucaphone. or a bladphone, or a masculophobe. And yes there is a greater chance of it happening because more people are uncomfortable wiht gays than the other categories in most places. But you know what scott? Shit happens. The fact that man are uncomfortable with gays, doesnt mean you get speciall coddling. You think what you are going through is even half what the jews, irish, germans, or chinese dealt with? They didnt get no laws, they didnt no protected status, and they did just fine. Because as they achieved, they earned respect. They overcame people prejudices the right way. The one thing you have in common with feminists scott, is this belief the world owes you somehting. it does not. Not respect, not employment, not love, not acceptence, nothing. You don't have a right not to be viewed as as a sterotype any more than I do. What you do have, and what you seem to place no value on, is the right to try and overcome these and many other obstacles, and earn these things. And thatr scott, is the only "protection" gays, or any other group needs.
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